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Dave Cabrera is a good friend of mine. He’s also one of the most intelligent gamers I’ve met, able to talk at length about gaming on all levels. He’s got a blog, where he talks about anime, games, and the attached subculture with his conversationally funny writing style – it’s worth a look. I had a chat with him, and I thought it was so good that I wanted to share it with you guys.

Chris: What is art? (you probably know where I’m going)

Dave: I SURE DO

Dave: okay, here’s my point of view on it

Dave: the act of defining something as art is irrelevant

Dave: because what people say about art, as far as positive implications

Dave: is that it enriches our lives, teaches us lessons, makes us better people

Dave: because it carries meaning

Dave: but the meaning is subjective between people

Dave: but everything carries meaning. and that meaning changes from person to person

Dave: so we can’t define one object as art and another as not-art when they’re so wholly subjective

Chris: That’s true, some things can carry lots of meaning for some and be meaningless for others

Dave: ebert on videogames

Dave: the medium doesn’t work on the guy

Dave: he doesn’t really want them to work either

Chris: I’d bet large amounts of money that he isn’t giving it a chance

Dave: but in his own words

Chris: and that he’s sitting down with a preconception that “This is stupid”

Dave: film can enrich us and make better human beings out of us

Dave: to him this is a given

Dave: but at the birth of film

Dave: it was more a “oh my god look at this thing” show

Dave: and of course there were the moral decay people saying that this was bad for humanity

Chris: and other people saying it was worthless as an artistic medium

Dave: and when film was primitive, it was REALLY primitive

Dave: the biggest movie, for years and years running, at the start of film, was just a train robbery flick

Dave: like ten minutes long, as i recall

Dave: and at the end, the big special effects shot was that a robber pointed the gun AT THE AUDIENCE and SHOT THEM

Chris: Mind-blowing!

Dave: and we know it’s not like film can’t be trashy and disposable

Dave: it’s not anything about a medium that makes it inherently “more art”

Dave: and i’d argue that the trashy bullshit is art as much as things that are actually good are art

Dave: one is better than the other but still

Chris: If we’re talking about personal value and ideas taken away, we can’t even use words like “better”

Dave: yeah

Dave: quality is subjective

Chris: So, my second question would be – can games convey meaning?

Dave: sure

Dave: i think the big difference between a game and a film conveying meaning is that film has no barriers to entry

Dave: you can definitely sit down and watch the thing and see what’s there

Dave: you might not take it in or enjoy it but you have watched the movie

Dave: videogames have this whole language that a lot of people simply don’t know

Dave: like one of my friends, months ago, was bitching that this girl he was going out with couldn’t even jump over the first goomba in super mario brothers 1

Dave: and i’m like OH FOR FUCK’S SAKE

Dave: because it seems like the most obvious thing in the world to him but to everybody else it’s really kind of perplexing

Dave: “what the hell is this thing”

Dave: http://www.slate.com/id/2202262/?from=rss bahahaha

Dave: this article suggests that “fail” in the 4channer sense will eventually make it into the public lexicon

Dave: god he might be right

Chris: Oh, god

Chris: It’s so catchphrasey and vapid

Chris: …which I guess describes 4chan to a tee

Dave: slate knows what the “kids” are “into” these “days”

Chris: It’s Jell-o pudding pops, right? I think that’s what they’re in to

Dave: yes they love that stuff

Chris: I find it hard to believe that gaming is an arcane mystery – I played Super Mario Brothers at 3 (maybe 4?)

Chris: Then again, children’s brains are remarkably plastic

Chris: There must be a barrier to entry, because overcoming it is the reason that casual games are so successful

Dave: and mario works because people can jump over the goomba

Dave: and yeah, as children it’s very different

Dave: we’re much better as kids than we are as adults

Dave: the BRAINY GAMER had a post on his blog where he tried to show his artsy academic colleagues braid

Dave: and they were all completely stumped, despite WANTING to play

Dave: it was just a mechanical problem

Dave: like “what the hell do i do”

Chris: I can believe that – gamers have pathways in their brains that formed over years of playing

Dave: and we can pick up new schemes pretty easily

Chris: I suppose we’ve got a fundamental notion of video games

Chris: There are goals to strive for, there are threats to be avoided, and there is you

Dave: it might take ten more years before we have a generation that’s fundamentally familiar with games

Dave: videogames, rather

Chris: What do you mean? I think we’re that generation.

Dave: yeah you’re right. i should say a mainstream that is

Dave: a larger mainstream

Chris: Oh

Chris: I think that may never come to pass, though – casual games

Chris: Today’s generation is getting these really shallow experiences

Dave: true

Chris: If something doesn’t change, I think we might be the first and last generation of serious gamers

Dave: nah

Dave: there will always be a market

Dave: people take to something, for whatever reason

Dave: like before wow

Dave: loads of people who weren’t gamers would become hopelessly obsessed with everquest

Dave: for a lot of them it was their first videogame

Chris: That’s a good point

Chris: There’s also the issue that there are many different types of game

Chris: Like, a lot of people love that Progress Quest kind of gameplay and I can’t stand it

Chris: And I love action games and platformers, which many people don’t like

Chris: And I knew some people in highschool who would only play JRPGs. Placing all games under one umbrella is a bad idea, it seems

Dave: it seems that either extreme casual or progress quest are people’s favorite

Chris: Yeah, those have appeal

Chris: for some reason I don’t understand

Dave: well, they’re pretty simple and you’re immediately rewarded

Chris: I think that explains it

Chris: I think a good game to bridge the gap would be like an onion

Chris: In the beginning it’s simple, but gets more complex, building on previous lessons

Chris: Games try that, but even the first level is hard for a non-gamer

Dave: yeah, the problem is really that people even lose to the tutorial

Dave: it might be the hardware itself

Dave: hence the wii being so big

Chris: And then there’s social factors and stigmas. “Games are for those people.”

Dave: yeah

Dave: and that won’t really be overcome until people are all playing games

Dave: which they will be, sooner or later

—

And that’s the end of it. If you have a lot of games conversations, the above might not hold anything new for you. If you thought that one of us made a good point, or said something interesting, or were wrong, don’t hesitate to comment.

This entry was posted on Thursday, October 16th, 2008 at 3:36 pm and is filed under Gaming. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.